I am so glad that my personal blog is able to host a discussion on this very important subject. However, some clarification needs to be made in order to keep the discussion on track and accurate.
This issue is about my right to breastfeed my baby without using a blanket, outside of the offered mother’s lounge and the sexualizing of nursing.
With regards to my breastfeeding: Any time I nurse my child in a public environment, gratuitous nudity is the farthest thing from my mind. I am concerned with my baby’s needs being met and keeping my breast and stomach covered as best as they can be in that order.
With regards to my husband’s and my meeting with the bishop: We are not publicly denouncing or criticizing our bishop. This is Maria’s personal blog and while it can be found by performing a Google search, we have done no advertising of it. The only people in our ward who are aware of any of this mess are the bishop, the Relief Society president, the people directly involved and those they may have consulted. Handled properly, the Relief Society president most likely would not even have had to be bothered. And as far as the bishop, we still sustain him – we’re not asking for him to be excommunicated or released. We are not even asking other people to breastfeed openly. We are just defending our individual right and helping others understand if needs be.
There is no statement official (or unofficial) about breastfeeding “uncovered”. In all the number of church talks/articles given about pornography, not one has ever mentioned anything about breastfeeding. Also, the state of Utah where the prophet and a host of members reside has a law that gives and protects the right to breastfeed uncovered.
I personally believe that Eve was asked of the Lord to make an apron - not an apron and a shirt while Adam remained in just an apron. The Lord never intended for a woman’s breasts to be thought of as sexual objects.
Anonymous and Husband:
*The only “facilities” required to nurse a child is a lactating breast.
*The time and place for nurturing my child is right when and where my child needs it – not right where, when and how indifferent people would like it.
*I take great pride in being a Mormon feminist. What, may I ask is wrong about being a “Mormon feminist”?
“What more could a Bishop hope for than a woman in his congregation to point out to him when he may be missing the point of the Spirit's promptings. Who needs the priesthood?”
*It is not the bishop’s priesthood that determines his spiritual promptings but rather his calling as bishop and his personal worthiness to receive revelation for his ward. Had the bishop even said "I have prayed about this (he never specifically mentioned praying about it) and the issues in this ward at this time necessitate nursing moms to use a blanket or the lounge." it would then be a no-brainer that this ward is not for us and we can move on to a different ward. But to just state that it is INAPROPRIATE to nurse uncovered in sacrament meeting doesn't relay spiritual promptings to me. Instead, it was presented as a trigger for pornography problems and a cultural preference.
*In regards to the smoking comparison: It isn't like I am inviting him to join me! For example, a smoker is on his way to work and passes a few people smoking on the way. They aren't asking him to join; they're just doing their own thing. But he needs to learn how to keep himself from being tempted by the sight.
“This issue is about modesty when breast feeding, NOT ABOUT THE RIGHT OF A MOTHER TO BREAST FEED, so stop taking offense and get over it.”
*(Italics mine) Interesting that I am told to “stop taking offense and get over it” when this problem has only been dumped in my lap because other people were offended by my discreet nursing! Because of how things have turned out, we feel as though we are on parole or probation, being watched for the slightest bare skin how ever incidental or insignificant it may be. Definitely, that is not the type of spirit that you want to be feeling at a church meeting or activity.
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17 comments:
"I personally believe that Eve was asked of the Lord to make an apron"
With all due respect, I think if you review the account more carefully, you'll find it was the devil that suggested the apron.
It's a sick, sick, SICK world that can see only sexual perversion in nursing, and apparently that sickness inflicts many, even those with apparent callings. Were it not so pathetic, it would be truly sad, if not tragic.
I just want to encourage you, and tell you that I'm sorry your blog has been hijacked by people wanting to stir up controversy. Hang in there.
With that said, one funny story. one time I was NIP @ a mexican restaurant (I am rather "full figured," shall we say). I saw a man I know casually across the restaurant from where I used to work, and we kind of nodded at each other. my daughter took that opportunity to pull off with a super-loud "POP!!", and there was my big 'ole DD staring my co-worker in the face.
ha!
what do you do? nothing TO do, I just kind of laughed. hahahah.
Gary here again, and I think you misunderstood. For me this is not about sexuality, or a mother's right to breast feed. It is about being modest. When I'm out working or playing sports the natural tendency is to want to take your shirt off (because you're all sweaty). I do not...why because it is not modest. This again goes back to the garment. I'm glad that Taun is so dedicated to breast feeding, I actually hate formula. Mother's milk is the best thing for a growing infant.
While I wasn't there with the exchange with the Bishop I'm quite positive he did not mean to offend. He is in a difficult position and has the needs of the entire ward to think about. It is unfortunate that so much controversy has to be brought up. In the end it is about being modest, yes as taun pointed out there is the slighest of skin showing, but you are exposed when the baby is latching on and when, as is exampled by anonymous, situations arise that the baby just breaks away. Being covered by a light blanket or cloth will prevent exposure and allow modesty to be maintained. This has nothing to do with sex, sexuality, a mother's right to breast feed...just being modest. Can you imagine a bunch of men coming to play a bit of church ball (basketball) and then doing shirts versus skins, meaning one side takes off their shirts. It would not be right, it would not be modest and if you pray about this, truely pray putting aside your personal beliefs and inquiring of the Lord you'll remember the covenants taken both at baptism and in the Temple and remember the importance of these covenants.
Warm Regards,
Gary Asp
Unfortunately, Gary, as a man you have never experienced breastfeeding for yourself and you don't know how frustrating it can be to use a blanket. I tried using one for a few months after my first was born. After I realized how much more attention it drew to me, I stopped using them. I was often having my husband hold the blanket so I could get the baby latched on... and for what? Nobody saw even the tiniest bit of skin. I've had many, many people come up to me wanting to see the baby, not realizing that she is fast asleep.
The sports scenario isn't anything like breastfeeding, because with sports you have a choice to keep your shirt on or off, and it doesn't affect your ability to perform in the same way it would with nursing. With nursing you HAVE to have skin-to-skin contact with the baby. It is a different situation entirely.
Another thought about the blankets... not every baby is willing to have a blanket put over their head. Neither of mine would. Sometimes a baby's personality is pretty strong and they express their opinions quite clearly! With the combination of clumsiness and unwilling baby, the blanket got tossed out the window after only a couple of months' use.
dCarolyn,
Good point, you're right I've never actually breast fed. I have however been there with my wife every step of the way. When it was time to feed the baby and we were in public, I would take a blanket and hold it up so my wife could discretely make the connection with the baby. Yes maybe attention is drawn to you but modesty is maintained and that's the key. If people would like to see the baby, while you're feeding, which I find to be quite rude, then you simply ask them to wait as you are feeding or the baby is sleeping and you have not been able to cover up yet.
When I say blankets, it doesn't have to be some huge thick blanket either. We used these thin single layer cloth diapers. It was breathable, and did not make our children uncomfortable (too hot) but it did maintain my wife's modesty.
I also agree that my sports scenario is loosely based upon this issue. I was pointing out that it deals with modesty, I can still play basketball with my shirt on, so to can breastfeeding be accomplished under a cloth of some nature. As long as there is support breastfeeding can be done without exposing ones self.
True children may not like being under a cloth or blanket of some nature. Perserverance and dedicated help from a loving husband can ensure modesty is maintained. Please understand that I'm not like most other men, I feel for women and the trials they go through. I'm proud of the fact that I'm in touch with my wife on a greater emotional level than most other husbands.
Have you been endowed in the Temple? If so you know about the garment and why the church encourages us to be modest. I'm not trying to be over the top here, I am saying that you can remain modest while breast feeding.
I don't have breasts true, but I have supported my wife every step of the way. I helped her to remain modest while breast feeding. She wanted to because she is dedicated to maintaining the covenants she has made with the Lord.
Woman have a wonderful calling life as mothers and I as a loving husband will do everything in my power to support her. We as Latter Day Saints are a covenant people, and as such stand for something greater in this world of wickedness. Modest is one of the foundational truths that we stand upon and help to define us as different from the rest of the world.
Again I implore all who read this to prayerfully remember the covenants made at baptism, and during your endowment at the Temple when considering this issue.
Warm Regards,
Gary Asp
First off, don't worry about the apron mistake. I am sure that it was overlooked considering the stress of your situation.
The scriptures do not specifically say that Satan suggested it either - only that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked after partaking of the fruit. It is only through the teaching at a sacred place that we learn of Satan telling them to hide because they are naked. But it does bring up an interesting thought. Adam and Eve knew that they were naked and made aprons that only covered their genitalia; unless of course, they were similar to cooking aprons. But if that is the case, then some things would need to be changed in the temple. Just interesting to ponder.
As far as breastfeeding at church, I personally do not have a problem with it. I think that it is great that you have chosen to have that bond with your children. From the mothers that I know who breastfeed without cover, they are quite discreet and most times not noticeable. I am sorry for how this whole situation has made you feel at church. Considering your feelings there, I am sure that you must be making additional efforts to be even more discreet than before with the spying eyes around you.
Another thing to bring up is despite what efforts or ladder of authority climbed, it is not very likely that the church will make a statement about breastfeeding in sacrament meeting. First, this is a worldwide church organization which consists of other cultures that don't even bat an eyelash at the sight of a mother breastfeeding uncovered - it's the norm. In fact, they are surprised and laugh at the obsession that we Americans have with sexualizing breasts. Second, even if only in the U.S., a statement banning breastfeeding uncovered would spark a need for a political campaign to revise many breastfeeding federal/state laws. We all have heard the same message read during election time encouraging us to vote but the church itself not endorsing any party. The only exception may be all the hoopla about the definition of marriage - union of man and woman. The church has clearly stated its belief in the family proclamation.
In closing, let me say that I hope the best for you and your family. Stand true to the gospel. Work with your bishop or whatever leaders you deem necessary. They are called of God to help you as one of His own. The last thing they want is to offend or deter you from following the true gospel. As has been said in other posts, these men are human and can make mistakes based on their personal beliefs/experiences. Hence, we are encouraged to pray and ask God for guidance - relying on faith, not blind faith.
As for any one else posting afterwards, please remember that this is a family that is striving to live the gospel. There is no need to talk of apostasy or bash each other with scriptures/quotes. It never really worked that well as a missionary. It only brings a spirit of contention. So, let us give this family some respect by providing good advice or support that they can use or not - it's their free agency to choose. And remember that we do not know entirely what they are experiencing, and also we are not entitled to revelation for this family.
Again, may God bless your family and direct your path to lighten the heavy burdens that you are now experiencing.
- al
"For me this is not about sexuality, or a mother's right to breast feed. It is about being modest."
In their post, Tuan/Maria state that this issue IS about breastfeeding rights. You are welcome to you opinion, but you are using incorrect information to back it up. You keep assuming that Maria (or any mother not using a blanket) is being immodest. She clearly states in her post that while nursing she IS modest.
Breastfeeding is a basic human need that does not require all sorts of bells and whistles. A lactating breast and a baby are all that are required. Heaven forbid your dutiful wife should find herself in a public place without you to keep her modest! Blankets, special covers and nursing rooms are not necessary!
What about those of us who haven't taken covenants at baptism or in a temple. Are we not able to breastfeed properly? What I'm saying is - those things are merely more bells and whistles not needed in any breastfeeding relationship.
Camille
I don't remember making any covenant in the temple that would have anything to do with nursing a baby in public.
Michael
OK Michael, you completely miss the point and I'm sure you are doing so on purpose. Of course you did not take out a covenant about breast feeding, what you did covenant to was to wear the garment, which among other things helps us to remember to be MODEST. This has never been about a mother's right to breast feed. It has been about being modest when doing so. I'm sure you'll completely ignore this point and come up with some equally trivial comment. Modesty while breast feeding, that's it nothing else.
Gary, did it ever occur to you that a woman can be completely modest while breastfeeding without using a blanket, or anything else, to cover up with? I routinely nurse in church and never use a blanket, shawl, diaper, or anything else. That doesn't mean that I'm breaking any modesty rules. I'm also wearing my garments each time I nurse my babies, and I'm not modifying the garment. That means I'm obeying the commandment to wear my garments.
Just a question about the temple covenants... do we actually covenant to dress modestly in the temple, or is it simply something we are encouraged to do by our church leaders? I can't remember the language exactly (with the drive to the temple and the ages of my kids it is hard to make it out as often as I need to go!). But anyway I thought the point of garments was to remind us of the covenants we make in the temple and to be obedient, period. Not that I'm implying that nursing without a blanket is immodest, because it certainly isn't, but I'm just curious what the covenants are (since my mommy brain forgot so much!) and if there are any statements in the scripture or by prophets specifically saying that garments are to serve as a reminder to dress modestly.
Gary, would you really like to have a blanket put over your head every time you eat?
It's not about modesty at all. The whole idea of "modesty" stems from the sexualization of the breast. When breasts are being used for their God-given purpose, why should modesty come into play? Just because some man can't get his mind out of the gutter? I don't think so. Of all places a church should be willing to support and encourage the natural use of one of our most amazing abilities, and should cast down any thoughts connecting sex and breastfeeding. By forcing "modesty," the church is making the pornographic thoughts normal and the breastfeeding the thing that needs to be hidden. This is unacceptable.
E
Gary, modesty is about sex. If it's about modesty then it's about sex. If breastfeeding is not about sex then it's not about modesty.
The details of nursing should really be left to mothers. There is too much individual variation to regulate it to the degree that leaders require blankets.
In my opinion, it is immodest to make a big production of nursing. Waving around a blanket only signals: "Everybody look here. There's something sexual going on here. That woman needs to hide under the blanket."
It's much heathier to approach nursing as a natural and normal activity.
Hellmut, there's a site on the internet called dictionary.com.
<def word=modesty>
1. the quality of being modest; freedom from vanity, boastfulness, etc.
2. regard for decency of behavior, speech, dress, etc.
3. simplicity; moderation.
</def>
<def word=modest>
1. having or showing a moderate or humble estimate of one's merits, importance, etc.; free from vanity, egotism, boastfulness, or great pretensions.
2. free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house.
3. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent: a modest neckline on a dress.
4. limited or moderate in amount, extent, etc.: a modest increase in salary.
</def>
3rd principle of persuasion: avoid insulting the persuadee.
Good point, Anon. I am not interested in persuading anyone. I am interested in establishing the taboo that thou shalt not pick on nursing mothers.
I don't think that Mormons use modesty in the way the dictionary describes. I don't remember a single lesson ever about the evils of ostentation. In Mormon society, modesty means that females are not supposed to attract males.
There's nothing inherently sexual about a nipple. It's just a nipple. All of us have them; they're nothing special. Any sexuality that's associated with bare breasts is likely a result of social or cultural conditioning.
If bishops and other leaders stopped telling us that nudity in nearly any context is sexual, obscene, and pornographic, then it's unlikely that people would be upset (or turned on) when seeing a nipple for a quarter of a second in a breastfeeding context. I would even suggest that as part of a porn addict's healing and recovery, he should learn to appreciate the difference between pornographic nudity and non-sexual, non-obscene nudity (such as in a breastfeeding context). Insecurity and unhealthy attitudes about sexuality and nudity actually contribute to problems such as pornography compulsions. The bishop (or, better yet, a professional counselor) should help him become comfortable with non-sexual, non-obscene nudity, rather than convincing him that he must avoid nudity in nearly all contexts.
Also, FWIW, when it comes to the Adam and Eve narrative, I've always found it interesting how God asks Adam "Who told thee thou wast naked?" In the Genesis/Moses accounts, there's really no answer to this question. But in the temple endowment version, someone actually does tell Adam and Eve that they are naked and that they should hide it. That's Satan. Prior to this time, they were naked and "not ashamed."
I'm not advocating naturalism or nudism or anything, but I am suggesting that we tend to have rather immature, unhealthy views of nudity and sexuality in the Church.
Modesty is defined by the person observing, it is subjective. Breasts feeding is not in any way immodest IMO. The point about it being a "trigger" for a porn addict is silly, you are not responsible for that persons problem. A Mormon "porn addict" is a mild version of the average joe's porn consumption.
Maria, you are beautiful and your little family is beautiful. I want to tell you how proud I am of you for sticking to your guns and doing what you feel is your right.
After my first baby was born, I was very reluctant--because of my own issues relating to being abused as a child--to nurse even in the same room as anyone else. It took a while before I was even willing to do it in front of other people with a blanket. But after seeing a lady in my ward unselfconsciously nursing her baby in church, I was a changed woman. I breastfed my second baby in church all the time because of that lady's example. In fact, I was a lot more relaxed about breastfeeding ANYWHERE after that. (I think I am going to thank her next week!) Maria, some young mother like me is going to see you feeding your babies, and it will change her too. I know it.
We need more examples like you. Because of the strong examples of other women, I kept breastfeeding long after I ever thought I would. (My mother was horrified that I was nursing a baby with a full set of teeth!) I hope I can be the next link in the chain when I have another baby, and be the example for someone else.
Again, thank you. You are great!
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