My beloved friends,
I welcome this opportunity to say a few words about the very excellent comments to which we have read and pondered. Good counsel has been given from which we and others can benefit immensely. I am grateful for the emphasis on the acceptance of breastfeeding in general. How marvelous a thing it is to contemplate the divinity and design of womanhood. I wish you to know that we appreciate your love and concern.
Let me make it clear that I do love my wife Maria and our children tremendously. And I wholeheartedly support her in this effort. At times, I have a twinge of jealousy when I witness the special bond that she has with our two dear children, Emma and Daniel. But how comforting it is to have the knowledge that it is a mutual love shared both ways from mother to child and from child to mother.
Obviously, the meeting with our bishop left us disappointed and frustrated. Please understand that we both have great respect for this man. Though, at times, he can be quite patriarchal. But that is to be expected to a point considering his calling and fatherhood to his own children. The meeting went in circles with no resolution or compromise. It seems that having consulted with the stake president beforehand, the bishop was set on standing firm and steadfast to the counsel received from a higher authority. Maria’s suggestion of education, i.e. hold a fireside for youth and parents about the evils of pornography and the true purpose and design of the human body, was met with opposition because of the possibility that it may be perceived as agreement to breastfeeding without a blanket.
The one part of the conversation that bothered me most was when we were discussing cultural acceptance. From his experience and circle of influence, breastfeeding “openly” is not accepted in our region or in the Midwest where he served his mission. Maria explained that this is a perfect opportunity to educate and change the cultural perception of breasts to one in which God intended – the nurturing and comforting of children. The bishop replied saying that we cannot change a culture. To which, I replied that the change can begin with one. However, he reiterated that one cannot change a whole culture.
What a hopeless feeling! How insignificant is the one? Alone in action and thought? What difference can one possibly make among hundreds, thousands, even millions? I would think that any member of this Church would say that the one is very important and holds a great potential as a child of God. You only need to look at the restoration of the gospel and the establishment of this Church to see the importance of one young man and his courage among persecution and tribulation. And let us never overlook the great sacrifice of the Chosen One who made the Atonement possible. This Church, this gospel, brings hope to each person – a hope that we are special, that Heavenly Father still cares for us.
Perhaps, I have too much trust in the strength and courage of the human soul. But I must and do believe that there is a divine nature within each of us. We have such tremendous potential with that quality. Everyone was endowed by our Father in Heaven with a tremendous capacity to do good in the world.
For those that do struggle with pornography or any other problem, let us train our minds and our hands that we may be equipped to serve well in the society of which we are a part. Let us refine within ourselves the divine qualities and attributes which we have inherited. May we rise above any ill feelings or contention, and allow the light within to shine through as a radiant expression of God’s purpose and design. Though it may seem daunting as the one among hundreds, thousands, even millions, may the seeds we plant today change one heart, one mind…one culture.
I thank you for the goodness of your lives, for the desire within your hearts to do the right thing, for the fact that you are prayerful and kind and good.
Sincerely,
Tuan(The frog that Maria transformed into a prince with her loving kiss)
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12 comments:
I have nothing to say about breastfeeding. I only share a few quotes that I feel are applicable to the firestorm of words that I have read. Emotions are understandably high. However, these words are not mine, so don't shoot the messenger.
"One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop?"-“Chapter 12: Preventing Personal Apostasy,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 79
"Another sign of spiritual immaturity and sometimes apostasy is when one focuses on certain gospel principles or pursues “gospel hobbies” with excess zeal. Almost any virtue taken to excess can become a vice.
Certain members have wanted to add substantially to various doctrines. An example might be when one advocates additions to the Word of Wisdom that are not authorized by the Brethren and proselytes others to adopt these interpretations. If we turn a health law or any other principle into a form of religious fanaticism, we are looking beyond the mark.
Some who are not authorized want to speak for the Brethren and imply that their message contains the “meat” the Brethren would teach if they were not constrained to teach only the “milk.” Others want to counsel the Brethren and are critical of all teachings that do not comply with their version of what should be taught.
The Lord said regarding important doctrine, “Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me” (D&C 10:68) and “That which is more or less than this cometh of evil” (D&C 124:120). We are looking beyond the mark when we elevate any one principle, no matter how worthwhile it may be, to a prominence that lessens our commitment to other equally important principles or when we take a position that is contrary to the teachings of the Brethren." -Quentin L. Cook, “Looking beyond the Mark,” Liahona, Mar 2003, 21
In conclusion, I share these quotes in the spirit of love and compassion. If they apply to you (the reader-not necessarily Tuan/Maria), I hope they help. If they don't apply, then good on you. I make no judgments about Tuan, Maria, or anyone else who has posted. Only God knows the heart.
-Tyler Pierce
Tuan,
Well said and very diplomatic!
Maria,
You could suggest that the young women stop wearing skin-tight tops and jeans in general, no more jean skirts to church (as they are considered too casual by some), socks and shoes, since girls like to wear sandals and flip-flops to church, and make sure the girls' shirts don't expose their bellies back sides, ie long enough to tuck in and actually tucked in. It always bothered me when I could see (imagine a circle around the body at) their belly line and cleavage. If your nursing could be a trigger to those with specific morality issues, those types of girls and their clothes are not helping either.
I won't say that I completely agree with either you or your bishop. I understand not wanting to use the bathroom to nurse, especially when the chairs are occupied by girls just chatting so as not to have to return as quickly to meetings or classes. If necessary you should tell them they need to move. But bathrooms (at least men's) tend to not smell the most pleasant they possibly could, so I could imagine women's are similar. If nursing with a blanket (right or wrong) is acceptable, my thought is that you consider it. You can then say that you tried to comply with the recommendation to the best of your ability. And you need feel guilty or irritated. Whatever you do, know that you have my friendship and support, at least the emotional stuff. I hope this issue resolves itself quickly and to the mutual satisfaction of all.
I have to say---I enjoy all this opinionatedness. Sometimes making waves is fun. Sometimes it's just work. Talk to you later.
KC
Did I understand you correctly? Your bishop threatened you with disfellowshipment or excommunication because you are feeding your baby? Did he ever consider the public relations disaster that he would bring on the LDS Church?
It seems to me that the porn "addict" is playing your bishop like a fiddle. I am a healthy male and nursing moms do nothing for me. Relating nursing to pornography, that's not natural.
By the way, nursing in public is legal in all fifty states. Sure there are people who are uncomfortable about it but they usually realize that they are out of line when they learn that public nursing is legal. Therefore your bishop's perception about "the culture" is not rooted in fact.
If you need support, you might want to turn to the National Alliance for Breastfeeding Advocacy.
Ah anonymous, the "Impending Apostasy" if you question or disagree with authority line. How limited and short sighted and wrong. Was Hugh B. Brown wrong when he disagreed with the entire Quorum of the 12 about giving the blacks the Preisthood (He wanted to years before Kemball)? Was Joseph Smith wrong when he said "None are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the preisthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong; but such obediance is worse than folly to us. (Millinial Star, vol. 14, n0. 38, pp, 593-595)
Just because we hear Obediance taught acrross the pulpit, dosent mean Obedience to a man with mens view, we owe our obidience to God.
Anonymous is a wimp. He/she will not even divulge their name. Anonymous is like the kid in 1st grade who will tattle on her classmate to the teacher, but act all nice and sweet to the other kids.
Anonymous, it is you who are wrong. By turning over your mind and free agency to anybody you call "leader" you are not scoring any brownie points with God. Satan maybe...
anonymous,
hmmmm. so, the first steps to apostacy start with someone faulting the bishop? what if the bishop is just flat out rude or wrong? perhaps he is apostate? and anyone that cant see it is also apostate? or more, maybe it doesnt really matter. people should be left to find their own inner peace and find a community or means of spirituality, in or outside of mormonism, without wankers trying to judge their loyalty or obedience.
there is no doctrine about breastfeeding, just patriarchy about breastfeeding, so go down to the local convenience store and buy yourself a healthy serving of shutup, would ya? you are being goofy.
and take your little i make no judgments schtick and break it up into small bite-size pieces and serve it to pigeons. give me a break, you post your brigham young quotes about apostasy and say you are not being judgmental? what? did you post the same quotes over at espn.com about the utah jazz game? of course not.
tuan, well done. i too sat in a meeting with the bishop after he sent the rs president to tell my wife to not nurse in the chapel during sacrament meeting. your story is surreal to me. i have been there. and i know it sucks. i know how humiliating and belittling it is to see someone you love be judged and criticized. and more, for someone to do so in a ridiculous fit of ignorance with a vain attempt at using authority to mask their pride and stupidity. senseless b.s.
finally tuan. dont apologize for these clowns. they made a mistake and they are being asshats. so be it. you can still go to church and find your own niche there, but it wont excuse their asshattery. thats ok. another option though would be to take your family to the trees and parks that you adore, and let them do whatever they want to do there, including nursing.
I don't see the point of entering a conversation about breast-feeding, without commenting on the issue. The issue is not obedience to a Bishop's demands. The issue is whether or not a woman has a right to breast-feed on her own terms.
And please don't confuse the issue with quotes about apostasy from Brigham Young. I could quote this zinger from Brigham too: "if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned." Brigham Young is not a good source to quote when trying to establish the validity of a gospel principle.
Breast-feeding is not a gospel principle, it is a physiological function. As many functions of motherhood, it should remain within the realm of the mother to decide how to breastfeed. It is an issue of privacy. A privacy issue becomes and issue of public concern, when breast-feeding leaves the comfort and privacy of the home and is practiced in public. Now there is a public interest that needs to be addressed.
Which right should prevail, the public's right to privacy, or the woman's right to privacy. You could argue it either way. The woman may feel a deep need to connect with the child, and want to breastfeed with her breasts exposed. This may not be offensive to some, but is certainly offensive to others. The public right to be protected from the behavior of others is addressed when rules prohibit public nudity. This issue may rest with the local church authorities, who have got to weigh both the individual right versus the public rights.
Apparently the Bishop decided this issue with the input of the Stake President. Due to the patriarchial nature of the church, there is no appeal process by which a woman may overturn the decision. This is unfortunate, but it is how the church operates.
The simple solution would be to abide by the counsel of the Bishop, and continue to attend the ward, or locate another suitable place to worship, which allows public breast-feeding, and respects these individual rights.
-DV
The simple solution would be to abide by the counsel of the Bishop, and continue to attend the ward, or locate another suitable place to worship, which allows public breast-feeding, and respects these individual rights.
Let's see. Your choice, if you wish to continue to breastfeed, would be to:
(1) not abide by the counsel of the bishop, and risk excommunication, or
(2)find another place to worship, and risk excommunication.
No matter how you look at it, you lose. How much longer can you put up with the patriarchal crap?
Girl, it ain't worth it.
"This may not be offensive to some, but is certainly offensive to others. The public right to be protected from the behavior of others is addressed when rules prohibit public nudity."
dv. i think you are a bit wrong here. the fact that someone is offended is of little concern. the bishop could just have easily asked anyone who is offended to please attend another meeting. after all, it was their choice to be offended where there was nothing offensive.
and as for the nudity, breastfeeding is allowed, by law, in every state as far as i know. so, this clearly was not a violation of jack squat. the bishop may have issues with boobs, as may the stake president and their leaders, but that is their problem, not the mother's problem.
its quite obvious to me that there is not disclosure anywhere stating this policy. so to ambush the mother and her family to get in compliance with it is an ignorant power trip at best.
if you really want to break the issue down to its barest. i think it is this - the mormons think womens bodies are naughty. and in light of that naughtiness, a bunch of power drunk men make and enforce and encourage stupid rules about women and their bodies. this is nothing more than an extension of a flawed morality regarding women.
if the leaders cared, there would be input from mothers and women on this topic. but, they dont dare what the women think, obviously. just as they dont care about the laws, which would protect the mother and her child.
I've never read such a bunch of idiotic ramblings. To "Ken", anonymous signed himself Tyler Pierce. And you can all justify yourselves until the end of the world but publicly critisizing the Bishop is just wrong. Everyone except Tyler Pierce needs to get a life and some basic English reading, writing, and comprehension skills
First and foremost my name is Gary Asp, so all of you who want to make an issue of identity can get that out of their systems.
THIS ISSUE HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT WHETHER THIS MOTHER HAS THE RIGHT TO BREAST FEED, IT DOES HOWEVER HAVE EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BEING MODEST WHEN DOING IT IN PUBLIC.
Tyler Pierce you are spot on mate good post
KC you make some very valid points. This issue is about modesty NOT BREAST FEEDING. We are given a garment to cover our body and amongst many things act as a guide for wearing clothes that are suitable and modest.
Hellmutt you need to understand Gospel Principles a bit better. No one is trying to deny this mother the opportunity to breast feed, they are merely asking her to be modest in doing so to maintain the reverance and spririt present within the chapel during sacrament. Bare breasts are a detractor, especially to males. Covering up is a very minor request.
1stVision - you need some serious prayer and instruction. Our leaders are called of God and have gently requested our faithul adhearence to the rules that are laid in place.
Ken you are a malicous person who would claim that someone is serving Satan when nothing is further from the truth. I know anonymous personally and should think twice before attacking someones character. Shame on you! Go back to gospel principles and listen to a lesson on Free Agency. Adhering to the council of our leaders frees us from the bonds of sin and ensures we stay on a proper path, failure to do so does make us more susceptible to apostasy. CS Lewis said it best when he said "the road to hell is a gently sloping road" no sharp turns just here a little there a little. You need to have some serious thought about your gospel knowledge brother.
M.E. Yes in fact the first steps to apostasy are open ridicule and questioning of our leadership. If a bishop is going apostate it is not to us to question, but rather the Stake Presidency or above. It is unfortunate that your testimony of the Gospel is so weak.
M.E (continued)Having said that I would also like to say that you are a foul mouthed and narrow minded person. You should be ashamed of yourself using language like that. Your use of foul words is indicative of a weak mind. THIS ISSUE HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT WHETHER THIS MOTHER HAS THE RIGHT TO BREAST FEED, IT DOES HOWEVER HAVE EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BEING MODEST WHEN DOING IT IN PUBLIC.
M.E (continued) Mormons do not believe a woman's body is "naughty", bodies (men and womens) are sacred temples, thus the need for the garment to help us remember this fact. I take you are not a church member, and if you are you need to get with the missionaries and take their lessons over again, attend gospel principles, basically start over from scratch because you don't "get" the gospel or what it is we are talking about!
DV you bring up good points, but I still do not believe this to be an issue to do with Breast feeding as much as it is an issue to do with modesty. My wife breast fed each of our three children, and I wouldn't want her exposing herself in public. She understands this and wouldn't expose herself even if I was OK with it. She has a firm testimony about being modest which is the real issue here.
Anonymous who posted at 11:34PM, Patriarchial Crap? If you are not a member of the Church do not speak of things you know nothing about. I would challenge you to determine for yourself if the Book of Mormon is true before trying to tear down other's belief in Patriarchal leadership. It works, and this church functions around it. I believe that the direction given from the Quorum of the 12 and the prophet is beyond contestation and should be adhered to as the word of God. You need to pray for understanding.
Saquel - I couldn't agree more!
Final thoughts: Regardless of how you want to justify it, publicly critisizing your bishop, stake president, apostles, prophets is plain wrong. This issue is about modesty when breast feeding, NOT ABOUT THE RIGHT OF A MOTHER TO BREAST FEED, so stop taking offense and get over it. A woman's body is sacred (so is a man's) We should never willingly display parts covered by the Holy Garment in public. It is simply wrong. That is as deep as it needs to go, no quotes (although I appreciated yours Tyler), no deep theological discussion, no "mormon" bashing, just plain simple modesty....cover yourself as you feed your child, the bond is still there. This is a bond between mother and child, not mother, child, and congregation.
GARY L. ASP
Those of you who are so worried about breast exposure, I wonder if you know just how much breast is exposed by an experienced mom nursing in public. I can personally assure you that the amount of skin exposed AT THE MOST is a few inches. I'll bet many of you have been within feet of a nursing mother and had no idea that is what she was doing. The only danger of being 'seen' is while latching on, or if the baby chokes or breaks of suddenly, and the experienced mother (which Maria is) is completely prepared to cover if it becomes necessary. In order to see anything, one would have to be very close to the mother, and if she is sitting in the back, the number of people possibly in the 'line of fire' is very low. I really like the idea given that the bishop ask his known struggler to sit close to the front every week.
I also think you are making way too much noise over her disagreement with the bishop. Yes, he is called of God, but that doesn't make him infallible. In fact, expecting him to be right 100% of the time is a terrible burden on him. Some of the comments he made show that he was letting his feelings color his response.
What really saddens me is the gossip that happened. If I was in Maria's situation, I would feel very uncomfortable around any of the women, not knowing if the friendship shown was real or feigned. That, in turn, would make me start to avoid situations that would put me in contact with the Relief Society. Can you imagine how much less hurt would have been caused, and how much more Christlike it would have been, if the concerned ladies had come to her personally? Let's not be putting the entire burden on Maria and Tuan.
ps Having a blanket is no guarantee. My mother was nursing with a blanket on, when a male member came up and pulled the blanket off so he could see the baby!!!
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