Albrect Durer
1519
Well friends - the news is not very good. *sigh* My bishop did indeed send the RS pres to my home. I'm not exactly sure how to re-cap the evening, but I made a list of things we agreed on and things we disagreed on.
Agree:
*Nursing is not pornagraphy
*This issue is not entirely mine
We disagree on:
*He (and the stake pres agrees) feels that nursing in Sacrament Meeting is only appropriate with a blanket.
*He feels that any incidental flash of skin resulting from my nursing will/could be a 'trigger' for a man dealing with pornagraphy issues. Sort of like dangling a ciggy in front of a recent quitter. What about ppl with foot (or other often exposed body parts) fetishes? No one is being asked to keep their feet covered all of the time.
*When pressed, he found that the only solution in this issue in for me to use a blanket to "cover myself" while I nurse in mixed company - RS is not an issue.
*It is obvious that to him my refusal to use a blanket (while reiterating my efforts to always be as discreet as possible) clearly shows a lack of respect/understanding/cooperation/considration/compromise on my part
*He asserts that there are two ways to nurse - in the mother's lounge and "covered" (using a blanket). The third would be "uncovered" (his term).
*He and the rest of the ward can't possibly be the only ones with this negative and uncomfortable attitude towards nip. It's everywhere. (It is NOT in Oklahoma where I lived until just recently!)
*I assert that attitudes towards nip have indeed changed in the past 20 years
*He does not consider the normalizing of nip and breastfeeding in general to be a positive change.
*I CAN make a difference even though I am only one!
To sum up: He cannot force me to use a blanket, and I don't think that at this point he even knows what he would do if I continue as I have been. But he assured me I would be contacted should he later recieve a tip that an individual he is specifically working with on porn/infidelity issues has been negatively "affected" by my nursing "uncovered".
It seems to be an issue of exposed skin. If I nurse in the mother's lounge the odds that they might see any flesh are 100:1. If I nurse among them but using a blanket, the odds of maybe seeing flesh are then 50:1. Finally, if I nurse among them discreetly but without a blanket, the odds are suddenly 15:1 in favor of seeing skin. These are apparently odds they are uncomfortable with facing.
To quote a friend of mine "Why do we (society) insist on casting men as slobbering monsters just champing at the bit to rape and pillage. How disrespectful to one of God's creations to deny that they have free will and the ability to choose their own actions."
My wise sister told me that "when a person already is addicted to pornography, you cannot be held responsible for triggering that. Better not take any kids to church to trigger latent pedophiles. It's a slippery slope." I couldn't agree more.
One other thing he said is that if he were to declare as bishop of the ward that nursing in public without a blanket in mixed comp is NOT a problem, there would be a major fall-out. How rediculouse is it that a declaration that nursing naturaly and w/out shame would result in a spiritual calamity! It certainly does feel hopeless at this point.
"The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body an object of carnal lust. For example, it makes the female breasts primarily into sexual enticements, while the truth is that they were intended to nourish and comfort children. It promotes male sexual aggression in contrast to Christ’s example of tenderness, long-suffering, kindness, and steadfastness in the home.
Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes. Teach your children that they will find joy in their bodies when they use them virtuously after the manner taught by Christ."
A Parent's Guide, p. 37
found on the official church website
19 comments:
You certainly have been acquiring a lot of comments on your blog. This topic must be something others enjoy discussing. =)
So have you determined your course of action?
Well now that I found another like-minded LDS mother's blog I'll probably be visiting often!
Here's what I think is a doable compromise (I posted this on Mothering as well). Tell the bishop you'll sit only on one side of the chapel and he can instruct the offended party to sit on the other side of the chapel. Perhaps this person only sit in the front portion and you only in the back. That way no one who has issues with nursing will be even pass by you on their way out. Offended party doesn't see your working girls for 1/1,000,000th of a second. You don't have to leave or cover up. Problem solved.
Jeez, are you SERIOUS? Ugh! I don't know how you could sit through a conversation like that with someone so skewed on their views of breastfeeding.
I've always hated HATED this belief that men cannot control their 'urges' and us wimmen are to blame if they get a little excited when we do something. Is the bishop counseling all the RS to wear loose shirts, so those natural curves don't torment someone with pornography issues? It's silly. I don't care what his position is: if you want to attend your meeting and you are being discreet while feeding your baby, than he can deal with it. What is he going to do, take you out in handcuffs? Make you transfer to a ward with all women? I think this is an excellent opportunity for him to learn that NIP is natural and should be celebrated instead of shoved into a nursing closet.
I am amazed to read all these comments by other LDS females no less who seem to think it appropriate to advise their peers to ignore the Bishop entirely or inform him of what they would prefer to do and then dare the Bishop to act. It makes me sick to see how Satan works from inside the church. I'm reminded of the History of the Church when at various times people felt that they knew better than the prophet. For example, when Martin Harris wanted to show his wife the Book of Mormon manuscript and spent a lot of time wearing Joseph Smith down until he caved. Then the manuscript was lost and I'm sure blessings were forfeited. This situation is no less serious because we are a covenant people and when we begin to think we know better than our leaders and try to counsel them (which we have no right to do) then we are surely on the road to apostasy.
*snort*
I'm sorry - are you actually serious? Would you be equating her nursing discreetly without a blanket to Martin's wife? She did not approach anyone and ask to flash the members during church. All she did was nurture her children wherever they needed it. No flashing involved.
How can nursing in Sacrament Meeting be an apostate act when in another state the bishop would be breaking the law by insisting that she cover up? This is clearly a personal issue for this bishop which he seems to be approaching from a cultural and not prayerful perspective.
Camille
Someone has major holier than thou syndrome! I'm so sorry that so many unsupportive and narrow minded people are posting to your blog.
To the anonymous poster: Do you think that you know better than this fine woman's husband who is the patriarch of their home? Do you think you receive inspiration for their family? As long as they are approaching everything prayerfully and they are receiving confirmation from the spirit that they are doing what they need to be doing, they don't need people who think they are more righteous then they are posting to their blog giving them advice that is contrary to the council the spirit is giving them. I think that you are forgetting that sometimes bishops do fall away and not always does a bishop listen to the spirit. There are many cases of former bishops or other respected church members in positions of authority being excommunicated for various things. That is why it is so important to seek the answers for yourself and to be prayerful in all things, even when you receive council from the bishop. Is it so hard to believe that a bishop would react based on their own experiences and prejudices rather than what is good and right when giving council to a family? And it is wrong for a bishop to make a righteous mother and protector of those little ones who are most dear and precious to our Savior to feel ashamed of something so good and right in the eyes of the Lord, as nursing a child is. That doesn't make him any less a bishop for being wrong on some issues some of the time. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to sustain their bishop and other church leaders in their callings. And that certainly doesn't mean they aren't ever going to follow the bishop's council! As church members, we are taught to search, ponder and pray. We are taught to not blindly accept things for what seems to be the truth but to seek out the answers for ourselves so we can be certain of the truth for ourselves. Heck, that's how this whole church came about, by questioning the common beliefs and religions of the day! By accepting everything the bishop says without seeking council from the Lord for themselves, they are not doing their jobs as church members.
I'm bored of all the snorting and justification going on. The issue is not about being ashamed of breastfeeding or the sacred nature of woman's body and it's intended purpose. I have fulfilled the measure of my creation in that way three times. It is simply about whether we choose to follow the counsel of our leaders or not. Quite obviously in the situations we have been discussing, the Bishop has been deemed wrong and is going to be ignored. To say that you still sustain the Bishop is a direct contradiction. But as long as we keep babbling on about breastfeeding and how "miraculous and beautiful a thing it is" then you can easily avoid facing up to the fact that you are acting like Laman and Lemuel. That comment does assume you've read the Book of Mormon but from what I've been reading I'm doubtful. I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that I've decided to tax your brains no longer with my comments. I leave you to your own consciences which I'm sure are taking a vacation but there it is.
How nice that you leave such Christlike posts under "anonymous". At least the rest of us are willing to put our names out there.
I appreciate where you are coming from, but your willingness to usurp your will to the opinions of a bishop in the name of sustaining him is your right. It doesn't mean you are right. Go re-read Carolyn's post. She hit the nail on the head.
Anonymous,
I am afraid that you are alleviating your feelings of inadequacy at the expense of a mother and a baby. For that you deserve my sympathy but I cannot tolerate it when you to take advantage of children in this manner.
It is not appropriate to pile on a nursing mother by hitting her over the head with the "Follow the Prophet" guilt stick.
Since you considered it necessary to pass judgement on everyone else's conscience, let me remind you of Jesus' words about the little children.
Jesus does not put the needs of leaders over the needs of children. He taught the opposite.
in all sincerity/honesty...
with your wholesome attitude, you may consider that there are 2 sites re chaste nudism oriented to LDS:http://www.ldssdf.org (has an excellent msg board)and http://www.ldssdc.info/.
also see http://www.familyskinnydippers.org/.
Good Luck to you and whatever part of your path includes body acceptance!
Come on, folks! The Scriptures are full of stories of priesthood leaders, even prophets, who "blew it" by caving in to their own emotions, social pressure, etc. [Sampson, Aaron, David, and many others come to mind.]
If the "very elect" can be so wrong, why can't you conceive of a bishop being in error on such a minor issue as breastfeeding? Even Utah law, framed by its Church-dominated legislature, gives a woman legal protection to breast-feed her baby anywhere she is otherwise legally permitted to be.
And as for a bit of exposed skin triggering some unwholesome response, how can you make any woman responsible for what a man thinks? Whatever happened to free agency? Are we really expected to so freely give up on an issue over which we fought a war in Heaven?
Paul [who feels a closeness to the Creator when he sees a mother feeding her baby]
Psul in Carson City hasn't properly read any of these posts. The Bishop in question has requested that the author of the blog please use a blanket to cover her when breastfeeding in mixed company. As a mother who nursed I think I am more qualified to comment on this request. Are we so far past humility that we cannot accept that the Bishop as caretaker of the Ward family knows his flock and the dynamic of it better than us? What is sustaining if not to trust in the Bishop once in a while. He is not in any way violating the law or her right to breastfeed. It is clear to me that Paul may be the kind of person who thinks it appropriate to shop for the ward with the bishop who most closely fits in with his own personal ideals. I would have no problem with turning over my Bishop to the apostasy police if he was having relations with Mrs.Bathsheba next door and planning to whack her husband in his spare time. I think we should all cut our Bishops a break. What's a guy to do when he may have 200 or more strong minded individuals to look after. One person's best interests may clash with another's and then what is the solution? No one is arguing that man is fallible but that is all the more reason to support our Bishops rather than undermine.
Saquel (who feels a closeness to the Creator when she can fulfill her responsibilities to her nursing baby whilst sustaining and honoring the Priesthood leadership of her Ward)
Calm down, Sequel. Nobody is turning their bishop into the apostasy police. There are, however some commenters here who seem to want to turn this mother into the apostasy police for not allowing her bishop to dictate her right to nurse without a covering.
While some states do not yet have legislation protecting a mother's right to nurse her child anywhere she is otherwise allowed to be, the state of Utah DOES. If she lives in Utah then he is indeed violating the law as well as her right to breastfeed.
The right to breastfeed a child in public is an issue that both men and women are equally qualified to have an opinion on.
It seems like it is you who has not properly read Maria's posts or these comments.
Camille
I see Camille is snorting once again. I realize sarcasm is hard for the average Joe to recognize but that's okay. It's fun to go round in these circles. Militant breastfeeders with lack of gospel vision vs Billy/Molly Mormon leadership followers.
Do you feel better now that you have implied that I am stupid? Sarcasm is nearly impossible to detect when one can only read a response and not hear it. However, I did realize you were being sarcastic and was replying with a facetious response of my own. Instead of insulting those with different views than your own, try to stick to just responding to their points that you dissagree with.
To borrow a tip from one of your friends:
facetious –adjective 1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person.
sarcasm - noun
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
-Camille
It is possibke to sustain a leader even while disagreeing with them. They are people and are often wrong. My bishop said I could get married in the temple, then 3 days before my wedding the Stake President said that I couldn't. Mistakes happen, and leaders can be wrong. They're just people, sheesh.
Well I went through this last year and I drafted a letter to the general authorities which I never sent because I knew it would just be returned to my bishop or someone else local and that wouldn't fix the problem.
In the end, I talked it out with my bishop, clearly explained the LAW with regard to breastfeeding in any place I have the right to be, and blogged and generally b!tched about it for a few weeks to process how truly hurt I was. I wasn't mad at first. I cried and sobbed for days. The bishop backed right down when he realized I could have 50 topless women on the church lawn at the snap of my fingers. LOL.
Thank you so much for your support Kerri. I appreciate you sharing your story as well.
Maria
I'm sorry you are no longer in Oklahoma. None of my children are interested in nursing anymore, but I could use a friend like you at church.
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