Nestlé-Free Zone



Monday, October 08, 2007

Is the leadership of this church truly representative of the worldwide church membership?

Deseret News -

"Joining President Eyring was Elder Quentin L. Cook—a native Utahn, who was also sustained by church members as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He fills the vacancy in the quorum left by President Eyring."


I'm sorry, but I just can't get excited about another old white guy sitting up on the stand. Where is the African, the Asian, the Indian, dare I ask - the female? Why are the leaders of this church not more representative of the actual member populations?

I voiced this opinion on a friends blog and the responses were interesting. Instead of replying to me, another reader scuttled off to his blog to post this.

"This response was made because of a female member of the church who said she is tired of "old white men" giving talks at conference. Instead, she would like to see more equality that represented the population of the church. In other words, she said she wanted to see SIX female apostles. Now if that isn't a recipe for excommunication, I don't know what is.

I love women. I love my wife, my daughter, my mother, sisters, etc..I respect them, cherish them, bow down to them, they go through something that I would never want to go through, etc..
What I absolutely hate about women are the feminist women. Women who claim there needs equality among everything for everything. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes. I'm all for being equal on most things, but there are certain places where women have no business and others where men have no business.

I remember one day at OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY, I was walking with Spencer Gee, (good ol Spencer...) to the library and I noticed that there was a woman walking behind us. When we got to the door, I opened the door (you remember how heavy those doors are?!) to allow the woman to go in first because that is what guys do. (Guess what? I open the door for women AND guys to go in first if they are close enough behind me. It's called respect.) Anyway, this woman insisted on opening the other door and said something to the effect that she can do things herself. I was so mad at her. I was simply trying to perform a good gesture and she shot me down.

I remember a few years ago at the PGA event (the Masters), the chair of the National Organiation for Women, made a big stink because there is a golf club in Augusta, Georgia where only MEN can be members. If she was so worried about women wanting to golf at an elitist golf club, then she should go start her own golf club for women only.

If the LORD wanted women apostles, he would call them. If you want women apostles, then go join the RLDS church, or Community of Christ. The LORD will call whom he will call. I resent anyone suggesting that if the leaders of the church would truly represent the population, then they would have women leaders. Oh wait, they do, the Relief Society General Presidency, the Young Women GP, in every stake, ward, branch...
Like I said before, I adore women. I love my wife, and she frequently puts me in my place, but I can't stand feminist. I'm all for equality, but there is a time a place for it."


My response:

What I absolutely hate about people is their insistence on judging an entire group or organization based on the acts of one or two people who identify themselves as such. Oh, wait - now I'm doing it! lol

But seriously - you are completely entitled to your opinion.

To clarify, I didn't say that I am "tired of "old white men" giving talks at conference." I said that I am frustrated that the 1st presidency and quorum don't adequately represent the ethnic membership of the church.

I don't feel that you can compare being an apostle to being in the Relief Society presidency. There was no RS in Christ's time. It is a modern institution.

Now, if I say that I am frustrated by the lack of racial representation in the 1st Presidency and Quorum, it doesn't mean that I no longer believe the gospel is true. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I do believe that the Lord calls who he will call. Why must there be something terribly wrong with wishing that one whom he calls would be a woman and those of different ethnicities and expressing my frustration that he does not?

It is obvious that this post was directed at me (that's ok) yet you don't know if I identify myself as a feminist or not. By the way I do.

It is quite arrogant to say - if the woman wants what the men have, she should get off her ass and go get it! Well, in this society, women are not afforded the means nor opportunity to always do that. We are still paid less than men and socially hampered as to career and life options. But this isn't about poor oppressed women, so let's not go there.

Finally, (and if you have read this far - bless you!) saying that you are "all for equality, but there is a time and a place for it" is like asking your friend for the bigger HALF of the cookie. There is no bigger half. Either it is equal or it is not.

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

You are so funny!

Mamapierce said...

I read it all. Blessings for me! Hooray! :o)

Anonymous said...

Here is my ultra-non-emotional, logical analysis.
-is "is the leadership of this church truly representative of the worldwide church membership?" the best question?
-my question in response to the question is this: what is the purpose of the 1st presidency and 12 Apostles? To represent the membership of the church (like congressmen represent their constituents)? or something else?
-my understanding is that the apostles have one primary duty (although they do engage in other activities as well): to be a special witness of Jesus Christ.
-If this is true, then they are to represent the Lord, not the members.
-next question: what makes one qualified to be an apostle?
-The ability to perform their primary duty - witness of Christ (i.e. a sure testimony of Christ's reality)
-race, along with a number of other characteristics would not enhance or detract from that and therefore does not seem to be the issue.
-the argument can obviously be made that an African could relate to and resignate with an African audience.
-Asian with Asians
-Woman with women? (I'll leave this one alone)
-Why then do we not have more foreign apostles to witness of Christ to their respective nations?
-good question
-their are a lot of questions that are difficult to answer:
-why were blacks not given the priesthood until 1978?
-why are women not given the priesthood?
-........?
-it all boils down to the premise that the church is led by revelation
-if we are at odds with decisions made by the leadership, then we find ourselves in one of a couple different boats:
-1. denying that revelation guided the decision
-2. standing at odds with the will of God, concluding that our way is better than His way.
-a few basic options are available:
-1. to boat #1 - pray to receive a personal witness that the decision was based on revelation and is of God (this is the same for all principles of the gospel)
-2. to boat #2 - realize that the Lord knows all things and will make decisions infinitely more prudent than any of us can; "Thy will, not mine be done"
-3. stand our ground and find ourselves more and more removed from the mainstream of the church
-In response to a question about why the blacks were not given the priesthood until 1978, President Hinckley said, "I don't know."
-I don't know either.
-There are lots of things that I don't know
-I do, however, have a testimony that the church is true and is led by revelation
-I choose to walk by faith, with the hope that some day I will be able to understand all of these sticky issues
-This is my analysis. Hope it helps!

Anonymous said...

I'll give you the bigger half of the cookie if you want it.

Anonymous said...

I have a new Poll on my Blog.
You might appreciate it. :)
It has two women, a brazilian, and a guy with a woman's name.

See, I'm all for equality.

Maria said...

Phillip,

Everything is frivolous and jokes and silliness. All of those are great, but when do you get serious and actually discuss things? Not rant, discuss and respond? Please just hold the snark and actually participate in the discussion instead of hiding behind your humor.

Anonymous said...

Yes ma'am. I will participate and not be silly anymore.
bytheway, phiLip is with one "L", not two.

Maggie said...

i can understand your frustration. totally. all i can say is- give it time. 20 years ago you wouldn't have seen as many non-Americans giving talks at conference. we are evolving and we have to allow ourselves to evolve. rushing the process would be a bad idea. we need to acknowledge that change is happening, step back, and allow it to happen. the church is a microcosm of society and reflects the lack of diversity we find in the higher government institutions. but it's happening. everything in it's time.

i, for one, love love love Eyring and feel he is where he needs to be when he needs to be there. although i understand your frustration those white guys up there still have a lot to offer us.

we're still a baby church but we're coming of age.

and BTW- i miss you! where have you been? :(

Sarah said...

Oh my lordy, that guys post was about as condescending as he could get. It reminds me of those who say "I'm not racist, I have lots of black friends." *big eyeroll* He sounds like he "bows down" to women a lot... I'm not seeing that happening, actually.

"I'm all for equality, but there is a time a place for it." WTH does that mean? Really. What does that mean? When is there NOT a place or a time for equality? Eejit.

I had to laugh out loud at him calling for your excommunication, though - that was funny. Damn wimmen-folk who think! Get rid of them!!!

But, honestly, it was his story about holding the door open for the girl at college that worried me. That guy has issues - serious issues that should make his wife nervous - if a woman choosing to open her own door made him "so mad". The mature action would have been to shrug it off, but instead he gets "so mad" and is still griping about that little action years later? Yes, his wife should be a little bit worried. Or put him in his place a bit more often.

Anonymous said...

Oh, if you really want to get his panties in a wad, pass along this website - http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/

Or pass it along to his wife.

Anonymous said...

That website was awesome. Too bad though. The only thing it does is let women gripe about their own miserable lives to other miserable women. If a woman wants to work, then work. Such negativity.
Well, I'll go put my wife in her place now by rubbing her feet and scratching her all over. I'm sure she'll go crazy over that and also demand that I also root for the Arizona Diamondbacks over the Colorado Rockies, which will NOT happen. At least this year..

Maria, can you honestly say you support the leaders of this church in your temple recommend interview?
Well, I'm sure I'll hear about this in the morning. I look forward to reading your funny little comments to one another.

Maria said...

Everyone -
Thanks so much for your comments.

Tyler -
Good thoughts. No, I don't think that the purpose of the apostles is to represent the church like politicians to constituants. But we claim to be a worldwide church yet the leadership does not reflect this. If Pres. Hinkley has said that he doesn't know why Africans were denied the priesthood then he has asked the question "why were Africans dinied the priesthood?" as I ask "why is the membership of this church not represented in the quorum/1st presidency?". Why is it blasphemy for me to ask these questions but not him?

Mags -
thanks for understanding.

pichinde -
thanks for your frankness. a breath of fresh air!

Philip -
Your intruduction on my blog was not the best - a rant is hardly anyone's finest moment. Ok - I do feel a bit bad about that.
Feminist mormon housewives is indeed a great blog. However your annalysis if it is incorrect. Visit it a little more often to see what we really are about.
But the feminist spin on this discussion came from a missunderstanding and really wasn't part of my original comment.

I posted this not to make it all about me and do I support the leaders of the church or not but to spark discussion on the subject.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Sorry, I had some misspellings in my deleted comment.
OK, Maria, you caught me in a serious moment. Don't get too cocky, it doesn't happen very much.
Ok, here goes...(whew, this is tough)
Maria, I like you.
Your comment suggesting that the prophets and apostles were old white men (technically they are) irked me. I seriously doubt there will ever be women apostles. They don't have the priesthood. I can't recall any moment in the bible or the Book of Mormon where there was a woman apostle. Now, that's not to say it couldn't happen today, but I highly doubt it. If it did happen, I'd be in full support.
Another thing, I kinda agree with you about women feeling a little put down by being members of this church. Such as they are taught to stay at home, cook, clean, be subservient, all that stuff. That is fine and dandy because somebody has to do it. But it is not a church position, it is the position of the people of this church, and that has to do with the last 6000 years of history, that is how it has been. Times are changing now. I'm the stay at home dad, while my sugar mama goes out to make the dough, and I stay home and bake the dough. Mostly because we can't afford babysitting and the Atlanta Braves (baseball) has not offered me a position yet. (OK, I'm starting to get off track). Next fall, Lauren is going to go back to school to be a nurse. Me? who knows. I kinda like staying home with the kids. I don't enjoy the cooking and cleaning part, but it has to be done.
Well those are me serious thoughts. My funny bone, and my sarcastic bone, and my say stuff that I don't necessarily think myself but like to get people riled up bone are starting to flare up, so have a good day.

Anonymous said...

My apologies for taking so long to comment. As most of you who know me, I am a thinker. But here goes.
Wow! Yeah, lots of interesting points brought up with this posting. Here are my 2 cents:

Worldwide representation in leadership (1st Presidency and Apostles) - yeah, it would be nice to see other races represented in that capacity considering that nearly 55 percent of the membership are non-Caucasian. Don't get me wrong, I like the called apostles there now. And it is good to have a science/engineering "geek" in the 1st Presidency now. But it would be a great step forward that is surely to come soon. After all, there are a number of Latin American and Asian members of the First Quorum of the Seventy who have been serving for a long time. And with the announcement a couple years ago about the apostles residing in two different regions of the world (South America and Philippines), that's gotta be a sign of things to come. What an uplift it would be for the South American membership to have a native apostle living among them, or an Asian apostle in the Pacific region.

female apostle - that would be interesting and something that I would accept if it is the Lord's will. I, for one, have a great adoration of the grace and spirit that the women in the church possess. And the idea of a woman holding that sacred power/authority is not out of the question in my mind. Just think of the role and responsibilities of the female temple workers - they definitely hold some power/authority; otherwise, there would be only male temple workers. So, in my mind right now, I don't view the thought of having a female apostle as feminist, merely desiring a temple (celestial) environment. But yeah, it is probably one of those things that the Lord will reveal in his own time like allowing the priesthood to be given to all races. I know from my conversations with other people who were present during that time, there were mixed feelings among the members, but apparently enough on the positive side for the Lord to have the prophet declare it so. Maybe, we're just not ready in mind, body and spirit. Just look what happened to the early Saints when they tried to live up to things that they weren't ready for - e.g. Law of Consecration.

Overall, I like pondering these questions. It is similar to how we ponder the mysteries of God (or does that just apply to the tangents in the high priesthood lessons?). Search, ponder, and pray. That's what we're taught. So, it's a good exercise to wonder and pray about different things in our religion to build our faith (rather than relying on blind faith). It's only natural to ponder on what the Lord has planned for us and hope that it is even better than what we can imagine. After all, our ultimate goal is one and the same - exaltation (living eternally in the presence of God and our family).

Sorry for such a long post. Sometimes I think too much.

Anonymous said...

So, let me get this straight:
You are among the less than .1% of humanity that has enjoyed the guidance of a Prophet of God; of those, you are among the small fraction who are allowed by their government to actually follow said prophet. Furthermore, you have the luxury of multiple prophets.
And you busy yourself being frustrated with these prophets' ethnicity?!

Anonymous said...

I don't think she is necessarily talking about the prophets ethnicity, just the gender. Right?

Anonymous said...

Fer heck's sake, Philip, are you as dense as you seem? Go back and read her original post. It is ONLY about the ethnicity.

Maria said...

Ok - I left a comment this morning, but it must have been swallowed by the 'net.

Philip - actually that is what the misunderstanding was. It is first and foremost about their ethnicity.

Anon - Your reply leads me to surmise that you are one of less than .1% of the world the lives in the USA or Europe and therefore represented 100% in the quorum/1st pres. This would explain why you seem incredulous that those of a different race could wonder why it seems that God feels only white men from Utah are worthy/good enough to be an apostle.

Anonymous said...

For hecks sake anonymous, identify yourself. You aren't afraid to call me dense, yet you mask who you are.
And I highly doubt that the members of this church outside the USA/Europe could care less where the apostles are from. They are chosen of the Lord and that is all that should really matter.

Mamapierce said...

.1%...does anyone else have to think hard when they read that?

lol